Episode 153: Live Interview with Greg Hickman

John: My guest today is Greg Hickman. Greg started out working in marketing in the corporate world; tired of restrictions he started his own companies that focused on mobile marketing. In 2015 Greg founded system.ly. His vision was to help businesses scale using marketing, automation, systems, people and processes since then Greg has helped countless business owners improve processes and scale their business. Thanks for being on the show today, Greg.

Greg: Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it.

John: So I know you’re very busy and I really want to thank you for taking the time out of your busy schedule so the first question I always ask guests are you know, what made you become who you are and tell… maybe explain about your journey and what do people know you by today.

Greg: Yeah, I mean I didn’t…I don’t have one of those entrepreneurial stories where like I knew I wanted to be an entrepreneur from growing up or started selling cards or flowers or whatever early on. Growing up I didn’t really know what the hell I wanted to do at one point I had a vision of starting a bike shop just because I fell in love with the owners of my local bike shop and I was a big cyclist but that was kind of the most entrepreneurial thought that I had had before college. In college I focused in marketing and I just kind of once I got to college and got into like business management was my major because we didn’t focus on marketing but I was interested in marketing. I just envisioned working for like a big advertising agency and that’s what I had always wanted and so out of college I basically just started working in large agencies actually large and small representing fairly large brands and professional sports teams. Jumped around to a couple small boutique shops. Once I kind of realized I didn’t want to be just a number in this large, large machine and had a chance to work in a couple of startups but really got into the mobile space early on like pre-iPhone doing a lot of text message marketing and once the iPhone came out and we saw apps that was like I was committed to mobile for the foreseeable future and over the better part of a decade my continued agency experience, my corporate side, client side work was all in and around the mobile space. During that time though I…is when I kind of really started seeing what was possible from entrepreneurship, when I started uncovering people like Pat Flynn and that at the time a podcast called Internet Business Mastery so I was all about like moving up the ladder in like an agency or even becoming like head of marketing for some brand at some point really until I got introduced to this notion of like online entrepreneurship which was around 2012ish is when I kind of uncovered that and then that just led me into starting stuff on the side, failing miserably and then eventually launching my own…my own business.

John: Yeah, so tell us a little bit more about some of those early entrepreneurial companies that you started, what happened, why did it fail and what do you believe made it not successful like what could you have done differently?

Greg: Yeah, so absolutely so you know, I fell in love with mobile I didn’t really know how to monetize it went like so I came across you know, the bloggers and online influencers and I didn’t see really anyone talking about mobile so I was like maybe I’ll be like the mobile guy and so I started blogging, I started a podcast on mobile, interviewing people that were like the head of mobile for like large brands that I saw doing cool stuff; open tons of doors but I didn’t really… I did all of that without really knowing like what’s the business model because I had a job at the time so this is all like for fun on the side. I launched you know, I did some like one-on-one coaching with smaller businesses. In that time we also tried building a course on mobile marketing which was it…we made money; I could never grow it beyond like 10k a month and we launched a software like a text message marketing software platform for small independent retail companies that was alright. We never really got it off the ground. There was just way too much competition and didn’t really know what I was doing completely and sort of with that whole mobile. It like evolved into a kind of like a managed service of like text message marketing for independent retail so we put together the strategy, we coordinated with like the the client and sent out campaigns and tried to drive people into physical stores and again I really had a tough time getting that over you know, ten to fifteen thousand dollars a month and that at that point is kind of when I like reached my limit and I just realized that the kind of my Aha moment was having come from all these big brands or like they were investing in innovation which was mobile at the time you know, they were interested in it. Smaller businesses looked up to those businesses and were like — One day I’ll do that. And so I started serving them but they were barely using email you know, they like I mean they were so archaic that like they didn’t even know they had a problem and they didn’t would never think that mobile was gonna be a part of the solution and so for me I was just at that point so in love with mobile as a solution and a marketing vehicle that like I was just blinded to the fact that they didn’t see, they didn’t even know what their problem was and my biggest lesson in kind of why I started switching was like I fell in love with the solution not the problem with it that they had and I didn’t really care about retail companies so serving a market that I really didn’t care to serve that didn’t think they had a
problem and so I had to educate them on this thing that I was truly passionate about and it just me… I needed to be in love with the problem that they had in order for me to best serve them and it was not that case and so that’s when I kind of realized something needed to change because I didn’t want to go back to corporate but at the time I had been using InfusionSoft because a lot of the online entrepreneurs that I knew were using it and that’s when I started going out and saying — Hey, like do you need help with Infusionsoft? And that’s kind of what got me into marketing automation and they all had problems with Infusionsoft and they all had pain and they wanted help and so it was like super easy to sell. I got to work with the new people that I really wanted to serve and like help them with the problems they had around automation and so it really just all of those things like falling in love with the person who I was serving, fall in love with the problem that they had and being able to like be interested enough to dig deep into the solution and evolve that over the last you know, handful of years is really what got me to today. So falling in love with the problem that my ideal client has… has been just driving me since.

John: That’s amazing so currently I know you have your own company’s system.ly can you tell the audience exactly what you do and who are the type of clients that you kind of serve?

Greg: So I’ll say who…what we are now and then I’ll kind of quickly do how we got here cuz it start this way so today we are a training and a coaching company, mentorship company for digital agency owners and we teach them how to really add on more leveraged revenue streams like consulting, like coaching and training that complement their agency services so that they don’t have to keep doing more done-for-you labor and in many times they want to escape the whole done-for-you game anyway so first we help them kind of optimize their service offering and then we help them install systems to automate their sales marketing and fulfillment and really start to give them the freedom that they had wanted by starting a business and grow continue to grow without necessarily adding more hours or like tripling their headcount. So yeah, that’s pretty much we’ve been doing we have a couple different programs that we work with …work with agency owners through kind of systematically helping them kind of install some of these systems and processes that they’re able be more profitable and enjoy more of their life but we started off like I said as building out automation and marketing the sales funnels for online entrepreneurs that were selling courses and all that stuff so that’s what we got really good at you know, all of the systems stuff, serving people that we cared about but the same story for us is you know, we capped out at around like 65K a month and when I realized that the way to hit the goals that I wanted to hit or revolved around alright for every ten new clients I need a new hire. I just quickly flashback to all my agency days and I was like that’s not what I want, that’s not the model that I want to grow and that’s when we started changing things and kind of pivoted into training and coaching around the things we had been doing previously.

John: That’s amazing. I mean that’s the whole purpose of being an entrepreneur, right? Knowing exactly where you want to be and be able to pivot, right? Knowing you know when you’re hitting a ceiling or you’re frustrated you kind of know where you really have to focus and put more efforts into, right? And once you figure out your target ideal kind of tribe or niche you then can really tone down on the messaging and really do the a/b testing exactly to those type of audience members because you know, what kind of persona they have, who is their idea of customers and who you know, the entire message, right? The idea so sounds like you’re having a lot more fun now way more fun way more fun. That’s amazing so growing up I know you talked about you didn’t really think about being a business owner were there people that inspired you to kind of do this on your own? Were the people that kind of pushed you or was this more like inside you like you wanted to escape the corporate and you had side hustles and you enjoyed it so much that you kind of just wanted to do your own thing?

Greg: Yeah, I think it was a mix. I mean early days like I said I kind of started you know, online bloggers and stuff like that. Pat Flynn was one of them, Amy Porterfield. The guys over Internet Business Mastery which doesn’t exist anymore. The podcast Jason or yeah, Jason Van Orden and Jeremy Frandsen in like those two guys like we’re also really inspiring to see it like — Hey, like these guys were all like designing the business around what…how they want to live their life so from a You Can Do This. That was like those were the inspirations but as I as I started…so that was like probably the driver I’d say and as I started following those sorts of people I kept kind of having my own ideas and even when I would try to implement certain ideas inside of the organizations that I had been in full-time at that point it just felt like I was always having to fulfill on someone else’s vision and I couldn’t necessarily always bring my ideas to like fruition and that just got really frustrating and what you know, those two kind of combined like not being able to execute on the things that I felt we’re gonna make a difference and then having to do something else because someone else told me to and seeing other people kind of make their own path just kind of built up over time and I just realized that wasn’t gonna be my path to keep working in corporate.

John: That’s amazing I mean this is the whole thing about like when you kind of know when to start or not to start and it’s all timing and it’s all based on each individual have their own calling, right? You kind of know when so that’s amazing to hear. In terms of challenges then or mistakes , right? How did you move on like how did you figure out like to kind of stop wasting your time and move on or keep plugging away to kind of see if this is gonna be a success cuz as an entrepreneur you know, as much as I do like. Your mindset is I got a win. I gotta figure this out, right?

Greg: Yeah so the the most relevant story around this was you know, when I had left my last full time job which was I went full-time in 2014 and that was still in the mobile space and I actually started a podcast with a friend of mine called Zero to Scale which we had about a hundred and one episodes before we ended the show and it was basically chronicling our journey to getting our businesses to 20k a month and then we both hit 20k month and we raised the goal but in the beginning of that podcast I was doing the mobile thing that I was telling you about and around episode 50 I had kind of been just running up against that wall and my Co said — Well, let’s just like throw some ideas off the wall here like if you couldn’t do this mobile thing anymore and you had to do something else what would you do and I said — You know what…well, I’d you know, I’ve been really falling in love with Infusionsoft and an automation. I’d probably do something around that and he’s like — Alright, cool. Why don’t you see if you can go get a couple clients in the next 30 days and if you get those clients that gives you permission to think more about what this thing could look like because as a systems minded person I would have sat there in fact, thought through like what’s the business model, what’s all these things, what’s it gonna look like 10 years from now and he knew that so he’s like — The only thing you could do is go get clients to support them with Infusionsoft. He’s like — How many do you think you can get in the next you know, next 30 days that would excite you enough that you’d want to continue thinking about this. I was like if I can get three clients in the next 30 days I’d be convinced enough to like explore more. Well, in six days we had seven clients. The pain was very real one call closes, verses six months, sales cycles and I was like — Wow like in 30 days. I’m making more than I’m making… that I’ve been spending the last year on however many years on and that was one like kind of the lightbulb clicked and the hardest part of that whole thing which I spent another probably three or four months just like trying to figure out what I’m gonna do with this like am I gonna actually pursue this or am I gonna stay with the mobile thing cuz I spent the better part of a decade like becoming this mobile person like content, I was speaking like I wanted to be like the mobile influencer and the biggest thing was alright, like am I willing to walk away from like this identity that I’ve created? Even though the business is not supporting where I want to go or do I care more about having a business that will pay me and I can grow and finally I realize that the business that can pay me and grow was way more exciting than just people thinking I was this you know, mobile guy and so that’s when I kind of just said — Alright, I’m phasing out all the mobile clients I’m giving them three to six months depending upon how long I’d been with them and I went into the next year all in on what is now system.ly and so that’s kind of how it started but I think you know, a mistake was marinating too long on making that like I was always going to make the decision I like when I…all the evidence was clear to just decide and like be on with it so I think I lost about a half a year just you know, noodling on that. Obviously the trying to solve something that only I cared about the solution not necessarily the problem of the person I was helping that was a….that was a big kind of directional shift for me.

John: I think the big thing from that is you know, being aware of you know, instead of chasing that authoritative figure that you were thinking everyone wanted to hear and you know, build upon that which is not supporting your lifestyle and right? If you have a family and you have other obligations like if it’s not paying your rent and mortgage and being able to help you travel and do things that you love like what comes first, right? And then that six months or even that ten years I mean it took you awhile to get there but at least you figure it out and you didn’t give up, right? Because you stuck with what you were doing and tried to just try to continue grinding it all. Just paying your bills or you know, just really…just living that life, right? Where would you be, right? Like if you think about it but you were able to take that risk because of your coach or whoever that was that person was to really open the door up to you, the opportunity and potential, right? Taking that step or taking that risk and seeing what is out there, right? But I love that because you know, I look at myself, I’m like I could have continued doing sales and because I…Yellow Pages I was there for five years and you know, I was president, school, circle and so I built myself up as a really good salesperson. I could have gone anywhere making you know, six figures just doing that, right? But my challenge was I happy getting people to not be happy with their product, right? Like I was frustrated that people were just not happy in content, right? So I had to come up with a solution that wasn’t available and so me taking that risk, it was like so much more rewarding even though the first couple years were a lot of headaches and challenges. It’s just after you get over those couple years of humps and you know, tribulations and challenges figuring out what the heck am I doing and why am I doing this. It’s so rewarding at the end, right? Of that tunnel so now you’re in such a great space because you know, exactly what you want and it sounds like you’re having a lot more fun because not only are you profiting more you can actually…a few things more with your time absolutely it frees up time when you have income when you don’t have income you’re like just working on your…in your business all the time and very true.

Greg: Very true.

John: No, it’s…it’s great because for me. I love uncovering like what is going on with business owners how they get their entrepreneurs because there’s always challenges, right? There’s always challenge in terms of like mentors and coaches do you currently still have any of those or did they kind of help you transition. I’ve had…I’ve had a bunch of different coaches and mentors throughout the years both paid and not paid. I currently am not paying someone I just kind of ended a relationship with a previous coach in the hunt for kind of the the next one that’s something I want to look back into in 2020. I love having a coach and someone to bounce ideas off of so yeah, I mean but from a mentorship perspective you know, there’s a handful of peers of mine that are you know, I look up to and seek mentorship and advice from in all different areas so yeah, I mean I’m always looking for…

John: That’s amazing. I think surrounding yourself with like just good people that aren’t in it for a different purpose, right? Like right…they are in it to really want to help you see you grow and succeed or help with your family life balance lifestyle like that’s why you know, I’m very fortunate I think I’m lucky because I am very like just outgoing so I talk to a lot of people and I just reach out and ask questions so I’m always curious as to how do they became so successful. You’re living in this huge home, how did you get there? Whatever it is, can I be like backtrack me? What did you do 20 years ago to get to where you are so just asking and being curious and yeah, some people may say get off my face. Don’t want to talk to you but others may wanna like just open up, right? And then build a relationship that way so I never really had like a coach per se but I had a lot of colleagues and a lot of just people I admired and I would just ask, right?

Greg: Yeah, I ask a ton of questions.

John: Oh, yeah and that’s a big thing like it’s okay for them to not even be interested in my question, right? Like they can say, phone it on me. I don’t really care at least I made an effort because I’m in sales, right? So it doesn’t face me when people say…

Greg: Yeah, you have thicker skin and most people.

John: so that’s awesome. So I know over the years technology has changed and obviously in your business, the funnels and systems, when did you discover like I know Infusionsoft you mentioned and there’s a ton of other platforms like HubSpot, Kajabi

Greg: There’s an active campaign.

John: Active campaign there’s so many of them out there like how did you get into that whole marketing automation is there like a time that you kind of started really investigating versus kind of doing it yourself.

Greg: Well you know, when I started following a lot of the bloggers and online course creators and stuff. The Pat Flynn’s, Amy Porterfield’s a lot of them were using Infusionsoft at the time and I mean I distinctly remember a conversation with Amy where I was like thinking about upgrading. I knew I was kind of like too early and she said I wish I had moved over to it way earlier than I did she’s like I do it now and keep building the infrastructure on top of it and so I’d started using it found value and how it was being utilized and in my business even though we weren’t like…that was at the time the mobile the mobile business you know, systemizing my onboarding and all that stuff but once I started serving the other entrepreneurs that were using it just kind of it just brought me into the back end and back office of their business. Where I got exposed to like — Wow, like the automation tool really in many ways for these styles of businesses you know, online coaching courses, etc. Like it’s the brains, like it is the brains of the operation and you know, some of them have CRM’s involved and no other guys you know, other platforms like connecting to Kajabi and all stuff so the serving of the automation was something like I just thought the idea of how automation worked fascinated me but when I started serving those people. It just brought me behind the scenes of their business so I could see how all these guys and gals were like running their business, building their teams which exposed me to other tools and that’s just…I just…I’m a tech dork at the end of it. I thankfully have a team that is also really talented around that so they kind of shield me from all of the shiny objects which I still sometimes get into but yeah, that mean that’s really how I got…I got involved in it.

John: That’s amazing, I mean that’s why like I’ve always been a salesperson like I love that face-to-face interacting and that whole skillset of meeting real people so this say…this marketing automation is so new to me that for me I’m very intrigued by how the behavior of people can be influenced by you know, what they see and and then interact somehow, right? Which is very you know, for me I’ve never really understood how it works because I’m more of a face to face kind of person but it’s the only way to scale, I believe.

Greg: Well, yeah and I think the interesting thing that you’re kind of I think saying without saying that I think is a big misconception or at least a mis-utilization of the tools is I think a lot of people when they hear like marketing automation or automation whatnot instantaneously people feel like — Oh, well that’s just going to be so transactional and like no humans all robots and like I believe and we’ve seen because this is how we leverage automation is in many ways like it doesn’t mean everything is fully automated. I don’t think there’s ever going to be like fully automated business but you can use automation to make your humans more efficient and save them time and increase their own capacity and bandwidth and you know, there’s tons of stuff happening behind the scenes that automation and the systems are doing for you but then it’s like — Hey, salesperson like here’s someone that you should probably reach out to based on the things that they’ve done and then that becomes a human touch point you know? Where there’s like they can look and see — Oh, here’s where they’ve been, here’s what they’ve done and then that human interaction can be super you know, high touch personalized and you know, that was all happening behind the scenes. It was like bringing this opportunity to this salesperson in like on a silver platter and you can do that all throughout your business even in fulfillment where you know people are you know, constantly working away on stuff like the system can be working and be making the human power people just more efficient and so that’s really how we look to help people utilize automation as well as just efficiencies streamlining stuff making other people’s roles easier you know, by the time someone gets on the phone with you know, sales reps following our systems like most of the selling has been done and it’s more about like is this a good fit for both of us and do we want to work together you know? And like that’s of kind of how I…

John: Off topic…I’m gonna be reaching out to you afterwards because kind of already sold me because at the end of the day we are always looking for our ideal kinda tribe right our audience and if you’re able to push people along by everything that you mentioned and really just hand that over to that sales rep where all they have to focus on is closing the deal as opposed to prospecting I mean it saves them time, it’s way more productive and you’re able to scale your business at a much faster rate, right? So yeah definitely we’re gonna… I’m definitely gonna reach out to you but in terms of like another thing in terms of when you started your business did you ever like to go into like networking events or did you go on to forums to kind of figure out where you want to position your business or how to get clients.

Greg: I wouldn’t say like traditional forums but like you know, Facebook groups for sure you know, I’d go to conferences a bunch early on. I don’t go to as many anymore and I never was huge into like the local networking scene. I kind of for the most part felt like it’s a waste of time which I…in many ways still believe but if you put yourself in the right position at the right events that you know, the right people are gonna be there. I think they could be extremely useful if you make them useful. I mean like when I go to conferences even to this day my like measure of success is before I get to identify the one or two people that I want to get closer with and my relationship needs to be deeper with that one or two person like I’m not trying to meet everybody. I’m not collecting a pile of business cards. It’s like am I closer with this person and do I feel comfortable that I could probably text them a question like that’s like what I aim for when I go to any event is like who’s that one person if there’s if I can’t identify who that one person is it’s usually a sign that I don’t need to go to the event.

John: That’s amazing I mean, that’s exactly what I tell people too because all you have to do is focus on one or two people that you really want to get to know, right? And instead of being solicited by a lot of people. I don’t even bring business cards, right? I don’t really just if I want to talk to someone. I’m gonna go out there, reach out to them and introduce myself and then figure out if there’s anything I can help them with, right? Because you want to give more than you take, right? And once you have that relationship kind of started then you can kind of keep that going you know, on LinkedIn or whatever on a text message or call them like that’s the big thing. It’s all about relationships, right? And the more you’re out there doing what you want to do and that’s the other thing if your a business owner, entrepreneur like you…that you should be the best salesperson out there so you should be very….from you should be very comfortable at least letting people know what it is that you do, right? If you’re not good at sales you better go start learning sales.

Greg: That’s for sure, yeah.

John: You know? And it’s not meant for everyone, right sales is tough so a couple last questions. I want to ask you I know you’re running out of time so what drove you like is there anything that kind of motivates you today like what is your passion for what you do and purpose and what excites you today as opposed to when you first started?

Greg: I’m a huge…huge fan of the process you know, obviously there’s tons of ups and downs I believe that like building a business at least if you want to build a success for one it’s an infinite game it never ends and like you just need to understand that that’s a part of it and so like how do you want to play the game is really the question that I always ask myself you know, we talked to clients where you know, they’re like — Oh, man I can’t wait until I get X dollars a month in revenue like everything’s gonna be better. It’s like no, it’s not like you’re gonna have bigger problems, different problems, more challenging problems, the risks are gonna be higher like if you make a mistake it’s gonna cost you more. Almost always and it’s like this guy Alex Hormozi who has a great podcast that I listen to. He kind of did an episode on like building a business is a lot like climbing a mountain being in Denver I’m tuned to being at a higher altitude like if you climb up a mountain and you go to 10,000 feet you know, the air is thinner up there. It’s harder to breathe and building a business like as you get to the next level like it gets harder to breathe because there’s more complexity, there’s more things happening, the stakes are higher and you kind of like need to build your lungs up to be at that level and like you have to up level everything you do to be able to maintain at that altitude at that level of the game that you’re playing you don’t have to go higher, you could choose to come back down and you know, people trained in altitude and come down and they dominate the competition like because it’s easier down there like once you’ve been up here and it’s you keep operating like if you do choose to be at a lower level you’ll…things will probably operate a bit more smoothly because you’ve seen and experienced and operated at that higher level so one I mean I really just like continually look at my progress to date and continually realigning myself with where I want to go and just and constantly just trying to make sure I’m enjoying the process along the way you know, the whole entrepreneurial thing has been hands-down the biggest class in personal development I’ve ever experienced. I’ve become a better person way more self-aware. I feel like I’m extremely self-aware which is like a skill set that I try to impose on our clients to like figure out themselves so yeah that’s a piece of it… is just like I just love the process and I like constantly so like grow or die? Basically if you’re not moving anywhere, if you’re stagnant then like what are you doing so that’s a piece of it like from a purpose so I think a lot of people release in the entrepreneurial space they’ll say like what’s your why and I think a lot of people you know, will be like –Oh, because of my family like I do this for my family. Honestly I think that’s sort of a cop-out that’ like a byproduct of your business like I don’t know any entrepreneur that started their business because of their family like they started it because they got laid off from a job and they needed to make money or just wanted to start a business because they wanted a bigger vision like the family is like something that is like driving…drives us but I don’t think it is our purpose like for our business I’m like why I’m in business like my purpose is like I want to essentially help every struggling and like unsatisfied agency owners, service provider like provide abundantly for their life so that they’re in their life so that they can do whatever they want and like have a business that fulfills them but like without sacrificing their family or the things that matter the most and like because I see how like when I install a system in my own business and it frees me up and I get like get to pick up my son from school early like how that makes me feel. That’s nice but like my business has allowed me to do that and then when I see our client say I was able to take a week-long vacation, not bring my computer and like we made money like the feeling that I get is like that’s…I want more of that feeling and that’s why my business is in business like that’s why like the result of what we’re trying to do is just constantly help those people and as many of them as possible and as a byproduct I get to provide amazingly for my family as well. Yeah, that’s like …that’s what drives me is like the feeling that I get from helping those people feel the feeling that I get when I do it for myself.

John: Yeah, I totally get what you’re saying because it’s very similar to as an SEO agency like whenever you do good work and you start getting clients to get a lot of leads and they’re converting, they generate more revenue hopefully they’re doing more with that revenue which is good. Which is not just for themselves but for their people, their tribe, their clients, their staff their whatever like they’re providing better service like stuff that actually resonates with me more is when they tell me like I was able to sponsor or community…like give back to other you know, causes or things that they really absolutely, right? So that’s the stuff I love to do as well like when I get to a point where I’m like every year I do this backpack program. I give back, right? And I help new immigrants that just don’t have the you know, stuff right? Like that’s why you’re in business you want to impact a bigger group and maybe when you’re starting off you can’t do that but you’re slowly starting to think about doing things like that right? Frees up a little bit more your time so you can volunteer more, mentor more. Help other people, right?

Greg: Absolutely. Yeah, I mean and you see it like I mean on my street we’ve moved here like about a year ago there’s literally entrepreneurs on almost both sides of me and you know, last night like walking our kid out you know, we’re recording this the day after Halloween you know, walking out and like everyone’s out there with their kids like being super present having a good time and the one next door to me, they were just coming back from a vacation and they were two days delayed because in the mid-flight from Hawaii back to Denver his daughter they needed to land emergency land the plane because she need to have emergency appendix removed and like so they were like three days later getting back to Denver than they were anticipating but like his business runs smoothly so like nothing like he wasn’t like — Oh, my god my business is gonna blow up like I can genuinely be present and take care of my daughter in this emergency and not worry about what’s going on and I can’t say that all business owners obviously operate that way but like he’s shown me like ran into me last night. He’s like dude you got to hear this story and it’s like — Oh, man but you know, he, his team, he’s got process in place and you know. I just think of how I probably would have been feeling like super guilty like if that were me you know? And I didn’t have that like stability in the business. I don’t know just like little stories like that I’m like — Man, like those little curveballs come your way and when you have things running a certain way like your whole life won’t come crumbling down that you can focus on the things that matter most which obviously in that moment was his daughter and she’s fine by the way. She’s great. We saw her last night, she was dressed up as princess and she was…she was rocking it so…Yeah, it’s just like little things like that you know, it’s like yeah, you got take care of that operation…

John: I totally get it like then you’re able to work on your business as opposed to in your business and a lot of people are in the business for way too long not knowing when to step out and really focus on how to really build it without you being actively very involved in the business, right? So that’s the entire journey that I kind of overcame as well but a lot of business owners start off like that, right? And eventually they should be transitioning or they’re gonna be in the business forever, right? Which then doesn’t free up time to do things that you really love and are passionate about so I know that was a lot of fun. I wanted to just ask you how can some of the audience members get a hold of you? Reach out to you know, contact you directly?

Greg: So we’re about to go through a rebrand and I can’t give too many details on that so I would say the best place is either just private message me on Facebook. I’m super active there or I have a YouTube channel where I share tons of free training on all of the stuff that we’ve been talking about if you just go to youtube.com/greghickmantv all one word. You’ll get to my youtube channel would love a subscription and any sort of comments on the videos but yeah, that’s the best place to catch me because that won’t be changing and just tons of free content around all of this stuff there.

John: That’s amazing, Greg. Well, thanks a lot. I really appreciate your time and hopefully yeah I definitely learned a lot.

Greg: Totally.

John: And we’ll definitely be in touch if you’re ever in Toronto give me a ring.

John: Yeah, likewise in Denver.